MCN article - Stiffer speeding penalties for leading rideout

Here's a good one for a debate then - read, digest and lets see what you think - personally my opinion is if i was stood on a bridge and someone in front of me jumped off it i wouldn't be following them!!

Stiffer speeding penalties for leading rideout
By Steve Farrell -
General news
19 November 2009 16:34


Motorcyclists at the head of a group of riders will face stiffer penalties for speeding under a crown court ruling.

Being the lead rider in a group is an aggravating factor making you partly responsible for speeding offences of those behind you according to the decision.

The ruling can be applied in any future cases where two or more motorcyclists riding together are accused of speeding. The head rider might be only a few mph over the limit but could be given the same penalty as the worst offender behind.

Road traffic solicitor Robert Dobson said: “Any crown court decision can be stated in future cases. This is potentially a very dangerous judgement for motorcyclists.

"Riders in a group change position frequently.

“If you are riding at the front any group at excess speed, then the very fact you’re at the front is an aggravating factor.”

Ken Clark, 49, reached 85mph on his Yamaha R1 while leading a group of three riders on the 60mph A272 near Rogate, Sussex, last June.

The speed is within the usual threshold for a fixed penalty of three points and a £60 fine.

But Chichester Crown Court ruled he should receive the same penalty as a following rider accused of going 103mph.

Barrister notes on the ruling given to Clark after the hearing state: ‘Although his was the lesser speed, [the bench] found it an aggravating feature that he was the lead motorcyclist, was setting the pace and he knew that the other two motorcyclists would want to catch him up and would be speeding to do so.’

The court rejected Clark’s appeal against six points, a £100 fine and £250 court costs.

Clark said: “This should have been three points and a £60 fine but so far it’s cost me £2,500 including solicitors’ bills and I have six points on a licence which has been clean for the last 24 years.”

Clark’s solicitor, Philip Somarakis, said 103mph was the speed reached by a police officer on an unmarked bike while tailing Clark's two friends, but the prosecution accepted it was not possible to prove from video evidence that Clark himself had exceeded 85mph.

“The gist of the ruling is that to be a lead motorcyclist makes you somehow responsible for the actions of those behind you,” he added.

Gary Baldwin, former police motorcyclist and co-director of advanced riding school Rapid Training, said: “It's a dangerous precedent to suggest you are now responsible for someone who's in control of another vehicle.

"How do I control what they do? If someone is following me and I get in an overtake that they don't, they may go faster to catch up but that is their choice.”

To read how the prosecuting cop posted pictures on a swingers’ website showing him astride a police bike, get MCN, on sale now.

Ezzy's Mum! wrote:
... reached 85mph on his Yamaha R1 while leading a group of three riders on the 60mph A272 near Rogate, Sussex, last June.

Brilliant that's one of my favourite routes and for many other people too.:(

Most of the time I'm ambling along on my own, I might come across another bike and tag along for a bit - or some one does that with me. There have been times there is a small group of total strangers.
So I'm minding my own business albiet a little too swiftly - say 65 MPH, someone behind me whom I don't know goes quicker to join in, and I get his fine too

Exactly Steve - when does a couple of people become a group!!

I think, erverybody is responsible for his own speeding.

A rider must not be punished for other one's speeding.

Ezzy's Mum! wrote: “It's a dangerous precedent to suggest you are now responsible for someone who's in control of another vehicle.

How do I control what they do? If someone is following me and I get in an overtake that they don't, they may go faster to catch up but that is their choice.”

That's the truth. No one has to drive faster just because i do it. A person who is old enough to ride a bike is even old enough to decide for himself :idea:

Ezzy's Mum! wrote: “The gist of the ruling is that to be a lead motorcyclist makes you somehow responsible for the actions of those behind you,” .

Gary Baldwin, former police motorcyclist and co-director of advanced riding school Rapid Training, said: “It's a dangerous precedent to suggest you are now responsible for someone who's in control of another vehicle.

"How do I control what they do? If someone is following me and I get in an overtake that they don't, they may go faster to catch up but that is their choice.”

A very dangerous precedent indeed

Very unfair and a bit harsh I'd say. But then, when has justice ever had anything to do with fair ? Cynical ? You betcha !

It'll make our next ride out interesting indeed

0ldcat wrote:It'll make our next ride out interesting indeed

Will you adumbrate that you don't stick to the tempo limits at your rideouts

That's outrageous

0ldcat wrote:
It'll make our next ride out interesting indeed [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Not for me it won't - coz i'll be in my usual place [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Ezzy's Mum! wrote:coz i'll be in my usual place

Are you usually the "tail-end charly"

yep i'm the slow one

You must be fast - the slow ones drive in front

In Germany we call the tail-end charly "Lumpensammler" (rag-and-bone man)

0ldcat wrote:A very dangerous precedent indeed

Very unfair and a bit harsh I'd say. But then, when has justice ever had anything to do with fair ? Cynical ? You betcha !

It'll make our next ride out interesting indeed

I'll second that! So this will apply to car drivers too? :lol3:
Suppose that means we can't set off on the ToL with a cheery 'Catch me if you can!' (BTW I'm joking - just in case Big Brother's watching! )
Or we can limit the numbers to 3 and all ride abreast......
Or we find 15 parallel roads.........
Or we can have speed restrictors fitted.......

Or we can try and change this decision that makes you take the consequences of someone else's actions when you have no control over them. The law is an ass (or should I say "Lumpensammler") and seems determined to prove it.

Right, bit hot under the collar right now - going for a lie down.

Oh or you can emigrate to the US where you can drive at 15 and there's no requirement to wear a helmet (it's called natural selection in Texas). One extreme to the other!

Given the elastic band effect, to ensure the backmarker doesn't exceed the 60mph limit that puts the front man at about 45 mph I recon :(

But on a more realistic note; One would hope someone leading a group using the "drop off system" couldn't be accused of his as there is no need for anyone to keep up & each rider chooses thier own pace.

Oh or you can emigrate to the US where you can drive at 15 and there's no requirement to wear a helmet

Or wear leathers, shoes, jumpers, long trousers........

Maybe its time for a 'Police Spotter' to go in front and watch for the boys in blue??

ellie wrote:
Maybe its time for a 'Police Spotter' to go in front and watch for the boys in blue??

Not so easy about these parts.That section of road where these guys were caught has a warning (as do many other roads) that they are patrolled by unmarked police bikes, and these aren't Pans without Police livery. I have seen the Surrey, West and East Sussex police with a Bussa, R6, R1 and a Kwack (maybe a ZX9R).
When the R6 pulled into a bikers cafe and parked next to me I took the opportunity to give it a good looking over. It's got Bikesafe stickers on it and a very small police badge. The only clue as to the riders profession is his police lid, so not going to be easy to spot whilst riding.

Fair play?

You just need someone who catches the full attention of the boys in blue, so that they don't care about the group behind him

Like this one:

The one in front

Any volunteer

That guy is just pure nuts

MORGY

So what about the rep in his 3 series BMW/Vectra VXR etc at the head of 110mph bumper to bumper train on any British motorway any day of the week??

hmm ...... the debate continues - i've signed the petition against it for what good it'll do but this was posted up by a lass on another forum from the cotswolds who has a GSX1400 ......

was out on the beast a couple of days ago and a bike raced past as if i was stood still ....the locals had a speed trap just round the corner so when I came round the bend it did look like we were together ( I knew it was there cause I'd gone through it in the car earlier) I may well have been going a tad quicker otherwise....(and got a few points). he was pulled, so was I and the young "got to get me stripes" said I would get a ticket for his speed...all groups get the same ticket ...been passed in court

said I did not know the chap and was not riding with him, but he was not giving an inch.......thankfully a more mature local copper, who was watching procedings spoke up ( he knows me and who I ride with) and said I was not with the other chap and THAT IS THAT, end of matter, finished

looked at me winked and said "watch it we are doing a few of these this month, so go easy"..........nodding towards young un said townie ...but we will teach him our ways

Radar wrote:So what about the rep in his 3 series BMW

Please, no prejudices

Radar wrote:110mph

Ah, ok - not driving that slow


@ Ezzy's Mum!

Did i understand that correctly - you have to pay - even you are not too fast
Bull**it
And you just don't have to pay because one of the coppers knows you - Luck

if you're over you pay simple as that - a general rule of thumb is usually if you are over 10% of the limit you should be going then you get points and a fine - it doesn't always work out like that but as far as i'm aware they used to say that due to the calibration of the speed guns - gives you the margin of error - 100mph or over you straight away come in for a ban usually plus points and a fine - anything else the going rate is usually 3 points and a £60 fine - i got caught few years ago on a gatso doing 44 in a 40 and got clobbered :(
Only time i got off was when i was stopped in a 40 and the copper said to me do you know how fast you were going and i said no but obviously as you're asking it was more than i should've been to which he replied i would tell you but then i'd have to fine you - don't do it again.
When i used to go on duty with one of the traffic cops he rarely gave a ticket if the driver was with their other half and when i asked him why he didn't he told me to look at the car in front which had the bloke in he'd just given a talking to - the wife was really yelling at him - John laughed and said that's why i don't because i've politely advised him about his speed and his wife is now giving him a right ear bashing - no need for me to add to his woes by giving him a fine as well - she's done my job for me

Ezzy's Mum! wrote:if you're over you pay simple as that - a general rule of thumb is usually if you are over 10% of the limit you should be going then you get points and a fine - it doesn't always work out like that but as far as i'm aware they used to say that due to the calibration of the speed guns - gives you the margin of error

That is nearly the same in Germany. Here is the margin of error 5km/h (3mi/h).
Then the fine depends of your speed (beginning at 10€ to 680€ ). The ban begins at being 31km/h (19mi/h) over limit in town, and 41km/h (25mi/h) outside the town.
And the ban means walking for one up to three month - depending on the speed

Ezzy's Mum! wrote:When i used to go on duty with one of the traffic cops he rarely gave a ticket if the driver was with their other half and when i asked him why he didn't he told me to look at the car in front which had the bloke in he'd just given a talking to - the wife was really yelling at him - John laughed and said that's why i don't because i've politely advised him about his speed and his wife is now giving him a right ear bashing - no need for me to add to his woes by giving him a fine as well - she's done my job for me

So when i go to one of your meetings i better should do it with a pillion, shouldn't i

Toni wrote:

Ezzy's Mum! wrote:When i used to go on duty with one of the traffic cops he rarely gave a ticket if the driver was with their other half )

So when i go to one of your meetings i better should do it with a pillion, shouldn't i

There's a dual carriageway not too far from me that has some really nice bends. Was two up and giving it some, when suddenly came across one of the gents in Blue. He puts his hand up showing me 5 fingers, I reply with a thumbs up (whilst slowing down ) and he lowers his arm (doesn't stop me).
I was asked (from the back) what was all that about .. 'Oh the speed limit is 50' I replied and turned up the music.

[quote="SteveCat"][quote="Toni"]

Ezzy's Mum! wrote: 'Oh the speed limit is 50' I replied and turned up the music. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

that reminds me of something my (ex) husband told me once - when he was posted in germany with the Argylls they were on exercise and they'd been on the beer the night before - david was 'driving'(??? or whatever it is you do with a) 432 or tank or whatever it was he said they were in. Apparently you don't see much in the driving seat and you're reliant on your mate guiding you - he said they were going through the countryside of Germany and he was having a fine old time - when they got to where they were meant to be his mate got out pulling bits of leaves and twigs from his clothing and had all scratches on his face and was not amused - stormed over to David and said did you not hear my instructions (or words to that effect in broad Glaswegian! ) you must have hit every bit of branch going - are your comms not working - david's reply was - don't know i unplugged it as you were giving me headache jabbering on [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]