Might be contraversal but...

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Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Sat Jul 04 2015, 20:32

Go all
Looking at doing some follow on training but not sure whether to go for IAM or CAT 1 or Rospa. Does anyone have any thoughts one way or the other as I dont really know if they are roughly the same or if one is better than the others?
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Lonterra on Sat Jul 04 2015, 21:13

I think they are all pretty much the same now.

I've done IAM, I know others who have done RoSPA. I also know some who have done both.

The main difference between the two is that IAM is a fire-and-forget one pass, whereas RoSPA make you take a retest every couple of years.

As for "This one is higher standard than that one", the latest opinion seems to be that an IAM pass is about a RoSPA Silver, and the RoSPA Gold is equivalent to the new(ish) IAM First.

To be honest, I think it's more about the local group than the test itself which one you should do, as some people just don't get on with their local group of one and then go with the other.

Give them a try and see which you get on with :-)

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  0ldcat on Sun Jul 05 2015, 08:52

Wise words Matt left thumb up
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Sun Jul 05 2015, 17:33

Cool, thanks very much for the info, think I will stick with IAM to start with as the Northampton bunch seem nice enough then see how I get on.
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  OhJay on Mon Jul 06 2015, 06:40

The guy who taught me for my DAS dropped IAM and stayed with RoSPA; he said he preferred the fact you have to retest every 3 years with RoSPA whereas IAM when you've passed you've passed, as long as you pay your fees you can let your riding slip and still be a member for life.

He also had a huge falling out with that IAM group who were all about fast fast fast. When one of them told him "oh you can ignore this speed limit" his response was:
"I didn't realise you were a Police officer"
"I'm not"
"So what legal right do you have to tell me I can ignore a speed limit?"

I was of the opinion they would both have something to teach me so it wouldn't have mattered which I went with but then my IAM observer also does RoSPA and I don't believe for one second he'd teach anything different with one group or the other so it wouldn't have made a difference to me. Besides, he was never telling me to ignore speed limits, he was forever telling me to speed up and actually ride at the limit hilarious

Little tip though, ask with your IAM group, we got a good deal on it through our local BikeSafe organiser
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Guest on Mon Jul 06 2015, 17:35

Hi

I did the IAM route yes I agree once you passed you passed, but the group I did it with is called the TVAM Thames Valley area and the group is huge , but you can always continue your training and gain next step to be a trainer etc ... I never been on a ride out with an observer that said don't mind the speed limit it is always keep to the speed limit , It is more progressive riding with in a safe manner ,But I do enjoy the social side of the group more and find that going out with a group so enjoyable .. But the training for riding was excellent and it's way to see the way of riding so different to the normal test way ..

But its each to there own

Ginger
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  OhJay on Tue Jul 07 2015, 06:35

Interesting, I was referring to TVAM at St Crispin's Smile I did my DAS with Pinewood in Crowthorne and I heard a few people while I was there saying they were like that.
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Thu Jul 09 2015, 20:52

Ohjay, funny you should mention about ignoring the speed limit. I have always been a bit cagey with going over the speed limit even when overtaking but the observer really wasn't bothered about going over the limit even though when I was sat behind a car doing 55 in a 60. His reasoning was that when overtaking, I can't see his Speedo and he can't see mine. Not 100% sure that's a good thing to "teach" someone?
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  dudeofrude on Thu Jul 09 2015, 21:01

Did nobody tell you biscuit..... speed limits are just a suggestion when you ride a motorbike or drive a German car haha
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Wooster on Fri Jul 10 2015, 03:12

I've been to a few road safety seminars over the years (sort of interesting, but can easily be like a Star Trek convention...aka: A 2 wheel nerd fest), and the groaniest question, regularly asked (in my limited experience) is a traffic Cop being asked if it's Ok to to exceed the speed limit when overtaking, swiftly followed by the "But what if.." follow ups, when they say it isn't.

Standing there in their official capacity it's patently obvious to most that the answer has to be no, you cannot exceed the speed limit, but there's always a few who fail to understand why they have to say this, and would still labour the point, even if the officer on the platform had a huge sign above them stating "Read between the F*cking Lines Moron!"  green smile

I joined RoSPA, and went on a few IAM runs also.
Personally, it was a bit pipe and slippers for me.
Rigid adherence to speed limits has me almost falling asleep on the tank, when I much prefer looking to 'make progress' beyond traffic..read that as you may, but it keeps me alert.
(iirc it used to be called 'assertive' driving/riding, where IAM and RoSPA, I felt, were largely passive.) :/

I also did some 1 on 1 advanced training and got a lot more out of that (obviously) than anything from the two main safety groups, but 1 on 2 was even better.
No idea what the rate is these days, but if two (or even three) of you can hire an advanced instructor for four of five sessions over a month (spreading the cost), you might get a bit more enjoyment out of it. (i.e. a safety competition between friends)
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 15 2015, 13:55

OhJay really they would be intrested to hear what you are saying at St Crispins TVAM, but what other people do on they own bike is up to them really
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Mon Aug 24 2015, 20:19

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Did nobody tell you biscuit..... speed limits are just a suggestion when you ride a motorbike or drive a German car haha

Yeah I thought that after speaking with one of the guys there "I can't see your Speedo and you can't see mine" was the comment but after two more lessons with someone else, they say not to go over the posted limit... will stick with my initial thoughts and not going over the limit and see what the result is.
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  SteveCat on Mon Aug 24 2015, 22:05

In the test, not that I've ever got that far, the inspector will calibrate your speed to his speedo - so you get into a 30 zone and he sees what he is doing and holds you to it, same with other limits.

I'm all for improving my riding skills, however when I joined my local IAM group, it wasn't a happy experience. Each time out was with a different observer whom had an eye on differing areas to work on, quickly it became overwhelming and no single point could be addressed and ticked off.
I was further despondent by folk who hadn't been riding for very long sailing through the test. Then the penny dropped, the more recent license holders have been through a rigorous training and testing regime and the advanced test is an extension of those skills. I am self taught, figuring out for myself how to ride the bike and survive and listening to 'old timers' for tips.
I was told to analyse how I was riding and reference to what I was taught, subconscious riding had to become concious and way too much for my peanut brain - I simply cannot process fast enough thinking about what I'm doing. I'm not blaming the 'system' but 31st August a few years ago was one of my try it out rides and had my only, so far, accident.

The thread title was ' controversial' and I've not helped, as I've already said, I'm all for it. The group I joined were maybe too procedural and clinical in the execution - getting 100% pass was marring the original intent.
My admiration to those who have achieved the pass with either of the schemes and encourage those thinking about it to go for it, I've resigned myself to the fact I'll never get there. I'm no longer bothered, around my way too may pipes and slipper, ex Rover driver types, it took the fun out of my riding.

1-on-1 training still has an appeal and maybe on my radar, after all I'm now in the highest risk age group ...
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  dudeofrude on Mon Aug 24 2015, 22:54

@stevecat yeah but as you know mate, your age group is the main one for born again idiots who think today's bikes are the same as the ones they had in the 70s/80s when they did their tests, and think it's ok to just jump back on a machine that they really have very little experience on and wonder why they can't control it.
I'm sure someone like yourself who has been riding for many years has more than enough experience to not have to worry about advanced training? After all, your not gonna get much more of an insurance discount now (which is the real reason people do the course lol)

As for advanced riding in general I can see the point when your reasonably new to riding but if youve survived riding a motorbike on the road for 10+ years then I think you know all you really need to? You've been cornering, overtaking and braking a certain way that has kept you upright and safe so why pay someone else to try and tell you that you've been doing it wrong all that time?

I'm sure we could all ride a little safer and a little better but I doubt even after advanced training that your going to be perfect.

Besides, if your not being at least a tiny bit reckless then what's the point of riding a bike? May aswell take the car haha
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Wooster on Tue Aug 25 2015, 08:35

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote: ex Rover driver types,

green smile
That rings a bell. Laughing

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that some people enjoy the social aspect of it.
(Though I have heard that some groups can be a bit cliquey.)


The reason I didn't get much out of them was possibly down to me preferring to ride alone most of the time. Question

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Eddie990 on Tue Aug 25 2015, 09:31

Find some fast, safe, old bikers and follow them around for a few years.

It's worked for me so far Laughing

Joking aside, any advanced training is good. I've done quite a bit over the years, Bikesafe, i2i motorcycle courses, California Superbike School, 1 to 1 track tuition. I've learned a lot of from each and apply which bits of which 'system' fits for me.

I've done IAM stuff in the car for work, been thinking about some IAM/RoSPA stuff on the bike but I just don't have the time. I'm also not a real big fan of being told 'this is the right way, everyone else is wrong'.

As with everything 'learned' we're all different and what works for me, might not work for someone else

Go for it and let us know how you get on.

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  past-it on Tue Aug 25 2015, 10:31

The group you ride with will make a difference, I've tried both groups and found the IAM a joke, Rospa on the other hand is run by half of the local area Police motorcycle riders, and on the roads in the west country that leads to some fun ride outs. Go to a meeting and talk to them you'll soon get a idea of the type of riders they are and if all or most the bikes are one make or type of bike avoid the group.

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  bignige on Thu Aug 27 2015, 20:44

Until recently I was on a IAM group committee,

Both the IAM & ROSPA use the Roadcraft manual & system of vehicle control as their base and so in essence are similar when it comes
to delivering Advanced training.
Both are road safety charities, the difference is mainly on the other activities, check out websites.

Neither Head office will ever officially encourage or condone exceeding the speed limit.

Many IAM groups have a social side too but some don't. Some are very old school and some are clicky as had been said and some contain an unhealthy balance of older riders. The best ones have a better age range, type of bikes and know the future lies with the young and are their to pass on any help they can.

IAM observers are all unpaid volunteers and for that reason will be looking to have a good time too.
Every run should be -Safe -Enjoyable- and be Beneficial. if its not there is something wrong.

Advanced is often misunderstood, it's about advancing oneself, everyone can do it. It's not some unattainable standard for the elite. And it's not about knocking folks back & staring again. Most observers and examiners are real world riders too

The IAM is currently putting all it's observers through an externally regulated & recognized qualification to improve consistency & quality.

You will often find when it comes to the test that Examiners do both ROSPA & IAM.

Some look at advanced riding as another tool in the box, some as away of life! (sadly)

An IAM test passs with get 90% of riders cheaper insurance via an exclusive broker.

Have look & see if it's for you, its not everyone's cup of tea but worth a look?



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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Mon Aug 31 2015, 17:42

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Go for it and let us know how you get on.

Had my second observed ride with the local IAM group and seem to be getting on ok. Think the group may be a bit clicky but not too fussed as I am there for a reason, not just to make friends. Learning curve is steep trying to take in everything but the observer I have been out with is pretty nice. Quite a mix of ages and bikes so hoping that's a good thing.
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  bobh on Fri Sep 04 2015, 23:05

I'm currently an observer with the above-mentioned TVAM group of the IAM.

I took up the IAM training after I came back to biking and bought my Thundercat in 2003, and realised it was several steps up from anything I'd ridden before. I chose the IAM, and TVAM in particular, because I had a couple of colleagues who were involved, and recommended it. Despite the fact that I'd previously done lots of miles and even had an old copy of "Roadcraft", I was staggered by how much I gained from it, not least in terms of how much more enjoyable riding became. So, once I'd passed the advanced test, I decided to do the observer training (not a trivial exercise, by any means) and pass on some of what I'd learned, with the aim of helping other riders to enjoy their riding more. And if I could contribute to keeping just one rider out of hospital (or, heaven forbid, the mortuary) so much the better.

It is true that some older-established observers are maybe over-keen keen on "making progress", but this is changing - there is now much more emphasis on safety and keeping a clean licence. My view is that progress will come once everything else is in place, not before.

As TVAM observers we have our riding skills re-assessed every two years by Rapid Training - run by Gary Baldwin and Andy Morrison, who you may have come across as regular contributors to the monthly mags. Most if not all of their trainers are also IAM and/or RoSPA examiners. If you don't want, or don't have the time, to do a full IAM/RoSPA course, a day out with these guys (http://rapidtraining.co.uk/) is a great experience and a good investment. Hopp Rider Training (http://www.hoppridertraining.co.uk) also offer similar one-day training.
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Sat Sep 05 2015, 16:23

Hi Bobh
Thanks for the reply and the info. hoping to do my next observed ride tomorrow with any luck and would ideally like to follow on the training afterwards with going down the observer route if everything goes to plan... might be a way off yet lol

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 17 2015, 16:46

@bobh wrote:I'm currently an observer with the above-mentioned TVAM group of the IAM.

I took up the IAM training after I came back to biking and bought my Thundercat in 2003, and realised it was several steps up from anything I'd ridden before.  I chose the IAM, and TVAM in particular, because I had a couple of colleagues who were involved, and recommended it.  Despite the fact that I'd previously done lots of miles and even had an old copy of "Roadcraft", I was staggered by how much I gained from it, not least in terms of how much more enjoyable riding became.  So, once I'd passed the advanced test, I decided to do the observer training (not a trivial exercise, by any means) and pass on some of what I'd learned, with the aim of helping other riders to enjoy their riding more.  And if I could contribute to keeping just one rider out of hospital (or, heaven forbid, the mortuary) so much the better.

It is true that some older-established observers are maybe over-keen keen on "making progress", but this is changing - there is now much more emphasis on safety and keeping a clean licence.  My view is that progress will come once everything else is in place, not before.

As TVAM observers we have our riding skills re-assessed every two years by Rapid Training - run by Gary Baldwin and Andy Morrison, who you may have come across as regular contributors to the monthly mags.  Most if not all of their trainers are also IAM and/or RoSPA examiners.  If you don't want, or don't have the time, to do a full IAM/RoSPA course, a day out with these guys (http://rapidtraining.co.uk/) is a great experience and a good investment.  Hopp Rider Training (http://www.hoppridertraining.co.uk) also offer similar one-day training.

@biscut wrote:Hi Bobh
Thanks for the reply and the info. hoping to do my next observed ride tomorrow with any luck and would ideally like to follow on the training afterwards with going down the observer route if everything goes to plan... might be a way off yet lol


This this the St Crispins place your talking about if so should have a meet up if you like !

Ginger

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  biscut on Thu Sep 17 2015, 20:30

GINGER wrote:This this the St Crispins place your talking about if so should have a meet up if you like !

Ginger


If that was a comment for me then the group is based at the obelisk centre and goes out from there, I know of St Crispins over the other side of Northampton and would be up for meeting up if I get some time :-)

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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  bobh on Fri Sep 25 2015, 21:48

Apols, I missed this last flurry of messages.

St Crispin's School in Wokingham is where TVAM have their monthly meet-up on the 3rd Sunday, so probably not the one you mentioned near Northampton, Biscut! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] has all the details.

There was a 'Cat at a recent TVAM run, from H's Diner IIRC. It had red/white aftermarket bodywork that I commented on - was that you, Ginger?
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Re: Might be contraversal but...

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 30 2015, 23:24

@bobh wrote:Apols, I missed this last flurry of messages.

St Crispin's School in Wokingham is where TVAM have their monthly meet-up on the 3rd Sunday, so probably not the one you mentioned near Northampton, Biscut!  www.tvam.org has all the details.

There was a 'Cat at a recent TVAM run, from H's Diner IIRC.  It had red/white aftermarket bodywork that I commented on - was that you, Ginger?


Yes that was me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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